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Miss M commented on my previous post that she spends much more on fewer people for her holiday shopping, and that I was “quite frugal”. I was surprised — I thought that I spent a normal amount!
It got me thinking though. I don’t set my gift price points out of frugality, but out of what seems to be a normal amount to spend. My parents do spend a fair amount on us, but besides the parent-to-child gifts, most gifts exchanged in my family seem to be about $50.
However, I make significantly more money than either of my siblings (but one has some family money from her in-laws to help out). I’m thinking 2-3 times as much, though I live in an expensive city. But does that mean I should be spending a lot more on their gifts than they spend on mine? Or would that just seem weird? I mean, my little sister already gives pretty small presents ($10-$25 or whatever) and I don’t feel weird spending $50ish on her. I enjoy it. So maybe I should take that further?
Maybe I’ve hung onto my college mindset of “$50 is a good amount for a gift” for too long. Maybe “real adults” should be spending more. I kind of thought $300 for a baby shower gift was slightly insane. But maybe it isn’t. Maybe I’m the one who is slightly insane.
I’m curious. What do you spend on Christmas gifts? Please give me details! How much do you spend for a significant other, sibling, parent, grandparent and a young kid (that isn’t yours, but you love)?
(photo by di_the_huntress)
Overall, I’m spending way less now that I live with T than when we lived apart. This is solely due to rent. I would guess that every other area, spending has increased or held constant.
When we lived apart, the little expenses that occurred due to the relationship really annoyed me sometimes. I don’t care if it sounds stingy, but it was really annoying to be left with no cereal/snacks/etc. after we spent the weekend at my place (which we almost always did, due mostly to my preference). It was annoying that I was the only one buying gas (He’s car-free. To be fair he spent $$ to use public transit to get to my place). It was annoying if I offered to take us out to eat more, even though I make significantly more at this point in our life. Even if it might be “fair”, it would bother me. (I was also a little more budget crazy at that point.)
But that has vanished. Part of it is due to logistics. All our food lives at one apartment now, and even though we eat slightly different things, we buy everything together and split the cost on the joint card. Sure, he may eat all the bagels (that I had no interest in anyway), but it just isn’t a big deal.
There’s also a smaller distinction between “mine” and “his” (except when it came to my pillows). We haven’t combined our accounts, but I think there is already the knowledge that if he spends $1000 on whatever, that is still $1000 less we will have in the future for our goals, even if my accounts and net worth stay the same on paper. I’m not saying we control each others spending — right now we are comfortable enough that we have some freedom. So I don’t quibble when he wants to buy a racing bicycle (he’s been super into cycling for months), and he doesn’t bat an eye when I suggest a $200 coat. (Ok, he batted an eye. And said it was really expensive. But I agree — it’s expensive. But if I bought it tomorrow, he’d respect it.)
I don’t when the shift occurred. Moving in together, getting engaged, or even just the realization that if I lost my job, T was there for me. Combined accounts or not, the commitment was there, and with that kind of support, it just seems impossible to get frustrated over the little expenses.
What about you? Are there little expenses that bother you?
(Credit to SS4BC and Laura for bringing up the topic in the comments of my pillow post.)
My older sister got married about 5 years ago, and my parents paid for nearly everything. My brother-in-law’s parents picked up the bar tab, along with all the other regular “groom” expenses. My sister in her husband paid for very little. I would estimate my parents spent about $8k, but that is mostly a shot in the dark.
So then, wouldn’t I expect my parents to pay for most of mine? Or at least $8k of it? No, not really. They have expressed a desire to do the same for us, but I just don’t think it is realistic or even fair.
My sister was a few years younger and was no where near as financially independent as I am now. There really is no good reason my parents should pay for the bulk of my wedding. We can afford it.
As a nurse and an electrician, this recession hit them harder than it has hit me (so far). My dad was out of work for several months is thrilled to have recently started something new — with overtime opportunities. My mom has been working fairly consistently, but not quite full time due to all the nurses wanting more hours. They never had trouble paying their bills, but I think they were mostly treading water for a few months there.
I do expect them to pick up some stuff, the way parents do, but I don’t want it to be a source of stress. I’m going home this month to look at dresses with my Mom. I wouldn’t be surprised if she pays for it. Nor will I be surprised if she doesn’t. I haven’t talked to them about what they will pay for, but even if it turns out to be “very little”, I’m fine with that. They gave me a lot growing up and gave me the ability to provide for myself.
I’ve read a few bloggers who say that when they give something to one child, they intend to gift an equal amount to any other children, to be fair. It sounds really nice, but that isn’t the way it worked in our family at all. We were communists, I guess — “To each according to her need”. And I’m totally fine with that, even though I have not “needed” too much. [I'm sure it is a fine policy to gift equally. There is nothing wrong with that idea. I just don't think it is something anyone should get hung up on.]
The things that they did give equally and generously are the things that matter: Emotional support, encouragement, discipline, trust, and lots of love.
We got all the way to picking out an apartment $95 above our budget before I thought, “hmm, maybe we should discuss the financial stuff”. Yeah, I know. Take away my pf blogger badge. As I drove home from a long day at work, I illegally talked to T on my cell phone. [That apartment isn't for sure, but similar figures will be derived for future apartments.]
SP: “So, how do you want to split the rent? In half? By income? We never even discussed this!”
T: “I don’t know. By income, sort of? Like, you pay $900 and I pay $700?”
This pleases me, because it is exactly what I came up with on my own after running some numbers about 15 minutes earlier. T makes about half what I do right now (he is still studying, but his earning potential is good). To do an official “by income” split, I’d pay $1060, he’d bay $540. This seems a little unfair to me. But paying $800 each also seems unfair — his rent would only drop by $200, while mine would drop by $625. With 700/900 split, I still am gaining the majority of the savings, but his rent is quite cheap. Plus we are both gaining an awesome location (him more than me ). I’m sure he would pay half if I asked, but I just don’t think that is the most fair situation for us. [Yes, you read right, the apartment is $1600. Since we may not be in L.A. forever, we want to live somewhere fun for at least a year. If we were thinking long term, maybe we'd go cheaper.]
SP: “Ok. And what month are you paying rent? I know not for May, but what about June? Or July?” He can start moving his stuff in whenever, but probably won’t actually start to live there full time until early June. He also offered to pay the differential between my apartment and new apartment for May.
T: “Yeah, I can pay in June.”
SP: “And moving costs… I was thinking I’d pay them up front and you can pay me once you move in.” He certainly has cash to pay his share. But he also has had to spend a lot on various things lately (including taxes = $$$$$). While these things were planned, I know how painful it is to take chunks out of savings all at once, so I think putting the costs off might not be a bad idea.
T: Sure. Yeah, my finances are a little crazy right now, that sounds good.”
Whew. That was easy! Now if only our conversations about whether to try to negotiate, what to negotiate, and how and when to negotiate were as short. We don’t really disagree, it is just… neither of us has a clue, so we’ve been going in circles.
By blog world standards, I’m quite slow on responding to this post by Dog Ate My Finances. She was crucified already, and I don’t mean this as a personal attack… Just a general attack on the big wedding thing as a whole. She is not the first to follow and expect the “cover your plate” rule, maybe just the first to blog about it as a recipient who was not happy with her gifts.
My thoughts on wedding gifts:
- I think “cover your plate” is tacky, especially as a host. It is sort of tacky as a guest too — if you are going to a backyard wedding, you buy a cheaper gift? I wouldn’t. (Admittedly, I could be missing cultural implications, but I speak only of my own culture.)
- If you really can’t afford a gift, a card is obviously necessary. To not give anything is tacky.
- But if someone gave me a cheap gift (or no gift) I know for sure I wouldn’t bother to remember or care about it. Sure, it is human nature, but I seriously don’t think I would get worked up about it. I have many flaws, but holding grudges just isn’t one of them.
- I like gift cards to Target.
- No, I would not show up with a $20 card for a wedding! Even a backyard affair.
- If you live in the area, sure, you can offer to help out…. But for family and close friends, I would be happy to help out with no matter what gift I plan to give! I wouldn’t do it to offset my cost, but because they are my family/friend.
- Reading stuff like this makes me hate weddings. Really. Not marriages, just weddings.
In my parents generation (in my family) weddings were mostly backyard type affairs. Yeah, they had big families, and no, they weren’t rich. The food was potluck style, often prepared by the mom and aunts. A keg is provided sometimes, but I think cash bar is common if you rent a venue. And by venue, I mean the Elks Lodge with round tables and folding chairs–not some high end hotel. People in sweatpants. (No, seriously. Someone wore athletic pants to one of my aunts wedding. )
Rude? No class? Small-town? Sure, some would say that. (The athletic pants were a bit over the top.)
But the weddings were about celebration, about the family coming together. The more the merrier, really truly. Gifts were appreciated and probably given by the majority of the guests. But they probably weren’t large, and I can guarantee the bride and groom weren’t registering for $200 crystal vases. People are as generous as they can be, but most people weren’t wealthy. The focus is on the celebration, on everyone in a large family making an effort to get together and celebrate.
Times are changing, and the old backyard (or even church + hotel) wedding doesn’t seem to be good enough for the younger generation. One cousin got married last fall, on the ocean in Laguna Beach. It was the most beautiful wedding I’ve been to, but it probably cost over $30k. Her dad covered some of it, but she covered some too.
But that’s her choice, you know? Most members of my family spent a small fortune on traveling, so I really doubt she “covered” the cost in gifts. I’m sure it’ll was a lot of fun, but thinking of any of my cousins tallying up gifts sort of makes me want to vomit.
I guess it is kind of like [insert disgusting act of your choice]. I know some people do it, but I think it is disgusting and I don’t want to hear about it.
I mentioned we planned to spend our Valentine’s Day hiking, followed by an evening in.
We drove north past Malibu and did a loop that included Tri-Peaks and Sandstone Peak. It was the most beautiful day you could ask for in SoCal! The air was crisp and clean due to the previous week’s rain, and the clouds were nice fluffy clouds I usually don’t see out here. It was stunning.
The cost was a couple sandwiches, Cliff bars and the gas to drive there (never mind all the hiking crap we bought last year). We came home and cooked some chicken penne with strawberry avocado salad and shared champagne. The cost of that was a bit more (maybe $40?), but I had leftovers for half of this week.
No hard core financial posts today, but this month is turning out to be as good as a three paycheck month due to my tax refund and a small bonus. Mainly, I just wanted to share the photo, to show that L.A. isn’t just an overpopulated smoggy traffic-y city near the ocean. L.A. is whatever you want it to be. 
[This is actually Malibu, but whatever.]
Secret spending and secret debts can destroy relationships. But what about secret savings? “Surprise, we are going on a great vacation!!”
(Image by by Marvin Stelljes)
An acquaintance of mine has been secretly saving up “her own money” for over two years, and surprised her husband with plans for a vacation to Costa Rica later this year. We are no longer close friends (I may have procured this info through facebook…) so I have no idea how they manage their money as a couple. Still, that has to be at least $200/month in secret savings! That is no small feat! How would you feel if your significant other surprised you with this news?
I’d be really excited/happy about the trip, but at the same time, I’d really rather be “in” on the savings. I think I’d be annoyed that there was $200/month going towards something I didn’t know about. It was “her own money”, which implies somewhat separated finances or some sort of allowance system where they each get (significant!) blow money.
I’m strangely uncomfortable with the idea of a big money secret, even if it is a good one! What about you?
Hating Valentine’s Day is much more cliche than the holiday itself!
by krisdecurtis
I refuse to ignore Valentine’s day, even if it may be over-commercialized. Even back in my single days, I never hated the holiday. When I lived at home, my parents always got us small little gifts. In college it was a great time for a girls night, though I don’t think I was single too many college valentine’s days.
My expectations (some may call them requirements) for the holiday are:
- a card (can be homemade, must be written in)
- flowers, roses not needed, an inexpensive bouquet will make me smile (once I got homemade paper flowers, that was kinda cute)
- Surprises are nice (but I guess, not needed)
- love, attention, and adoration! Well, this should be every day!
Our original plan was to plan a short overnight camping trip, to escape the Valentine’s day craziness and yet still do something we enjoy together. The forecast for the weekend was pretty rainy, but now Saturday (and Sunday??) look clear. Anyway, we thought it was going to rain, so we planned a day hike instead. I assume we’ll come home from our hike exhausted, and cook dinner together. If we do go out to eat, it’ll be at our favorite thai place, or somewhere else that we usually go. Play some music, get some wine, and spend the evening relaxing together!
I’m not saying that I wouldn’t enjoy getting all dressed up and going to a fancy restaurant, getting wine and desert served to me. I like that sort of date too. I just don’t think it is worth it right now.
Financial independence of those of us in our twenties has been a bit of a hot topic in the past month or so. From minor “handouts”of meals and gifts, to tax exclusion gifts, to nothing at all, the level of help we get from our parents varies widely. I’ve considered myself financially independent for quite some time, but I wanted to take a minute and reflect on what I have received, what I still receive, and what I expect to receive in the future.
In the past I’ve received:
Tuition and extracurriculars in high school: I went a private high school, roughly $3k/year. In younger years, they paid for a lot of activities and extra enrichment summer classes that I took for fun (math, English, art, computers). They paid for a month in Germany for a high school exchange program. They also paid any costs associated with being in activities, sports, and music lessons. I used my own spending money, clothes, and entertainment in high school after getting a job the summer after my freshman year.
Minimal help with college tuition: My parents helped out my first semester, I think. It was probably $1000 or $2000. Other than that, I had scholarships, grants, and student loans.
Car and Insurance: My parents always provided us with cars to drive to/from school in high school. They were older cars, often only with an AM radio and other embarrassingly crappy features (like the door handles wouldn’t open in the back–I told people it used to be a police car as a joke). After my 2nd year of college, I contributed somewhere between $500 and $1000 towards a newer car, and they gave me a car that cost around $400o (could be off by +/- ~1k ). They paid my car insurance and health expenses throughout college. I still drive this car, but I’m hoping to it to them later this year, as T and I plan to get a used (but newer) car. My little sister could use it.
Free rent during college: I lived at home for a semester or two in college, rent free, and often free groceries/food. I always worked hard in school and usually had at least one part time job, so I was welcome to stay in my old room. At first, it was important for me to strike out on my own and gain independence, so I lived on campus then in an apartment. But once I had my college life together, it worked out well. My parents are extremely laid back, and treated me like an adult.
Still receiving:
Cell phone plan: I’m tacked onto the family plan at a cost to my parents of $10/mo. Everyone I talk to regularly is “in network”, so I barely use any minutes. I’ve offered more than once to pay my share, but they don’t accept. (I think this is fairly common practice, as family plans are much better deals than single plans in the US.) Obviously, I’m responsible for purchasing my own phone.
Gifts: My parents are fairly generous with gifts at Christmas. In college, the gave me a laptop for school (a one time special gift–this wouldn’t happen today), and I got a GPS before moving to California. This year I didn’t need anything special, but they fulfilled my short wish list at a cost of maybe $250.
Meals: My parents almost always pay when we go out. This isn’t that big of a deal, since I don’t see them often. Last spring my parents spent several months living and working in the L.A. area, and they often treated me to dinner. They occasionally pay for vacation “treats”, (wine tour when we visited them in SF area), but we don’t often go on vacation together.
Wedding: They paid for my older sister’s wedding (she married young at 23), which I estimate cost around $10k. I wouldn’t care if they didn’t contribute to mine at all, but my dad said he wanted to be fair. I doubt they can afford to spare $10k in this economy. I expect some help, but not a lot. Maybe $5000, including travel expenses for them (I’m not intending on marrying in my hometown or having a large wedding).
Going Forward:
I’ve noticed a shift, even in the past year, of what they offer me, what I offer them, and what is accepted by either party. I’ve offered to pay for dinner or this or that, and they let me. My dad took care of hotel bookings for a family wedding, but I paid for my share of them. They requested I come home for my grandma’s backyard picnic birthday (which her own son didn’t even attend!), but they never offered to kick in for the flight. I thought they might, but wasn’t surprised they didn’t.
I think that they will continue with gifts and meals, but I also probably treat more often than I have in the past. I don’t expect to get any more “big ticket” Christmas gifts, and I expect to pay my way for lodging on most family trips/events.
What about you? Make your own post, or leave a comment!
I haven’t bothered to ask T how much money he has in savings for quite some time. I know he’s good with money, I know he has no debt, I know he has some savings. I just wasn’t worried about it.
Last weekend, I was lamenting my lack of progress in savings this month, he asked what my savings was. “Um, read my blog!” I told him again my estimated cash savings and estimated net worth. I asked what his was, not really expecting or caring about an answer. Except, he told me. “Wow,” I said, “can I blog about that?”
Ha. I got the feeling that he didn’t want me to, so I’ll leave it vague and say that it was a good number, but it wasn’t a shocking number. Quite impressive for someone who has pretty much never worked full time (aside from internships, co-ops, and summer research jobs).
But, as I suspected, it doesn’t matter, really. The number had no effect on… anything.
I’ve said before, the more important thing is attitude about money, and it is obvious are on the same page there. We’re both savers, but we’re both willing to pick and choose what to spend for. We are both able to go without things we would like, in lieu of things we would like even more. As our income increases, we have similar ideas of what we want to do with our money, mainly because we have similar ideas of what we want to do with our lives in general. I feel incredibly lucky that we ended up being a good financial match, because when we started dating, it wasn’t even something I considered. At all.
Numbers are probably quite important when you are bringing signifcant mistakes to the table–consumer debt, massive student loans, empty bank accounts, etc. But when you both have good things going, I don’t see why it is pertinent exactly how much good each of you has.
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